Woe to You Who Disagrees w/ a Christian!

I once really liked this story in the New Testament.  I used to think it literally meant you have to be humble, not proud, to be great in heaven.  But now, seeing this as an atheist, a second meaning  becomes clear.   In the first part Jesus is teaching his followers they must be humble like a little child, not proud.   What’s funny is from my recollection of childhood, children are not humble but rather very self-important; they very much see themselves as special and want to be treated that way; they want to COUNT, to be the favorite child, to get the gold star from the teacher.  So what I really think the point of this verse is–to believe in what Christianity teaches you must be gullible like a little child–have magical thinking like a little child–accept rather than to question what you don’t understand–like a little child:

Matthew Ch: 8–

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

Matthew Ch: 8–

This next part that immediately follows is a warning to non-believers like myself that there will be dire consequences for us if we should say or produce any evidence or logic that might cause one of God’s “little ones” to stumble in their faith, start to question their faith or… lose it altogether:

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”

SO in other words, assuming Jesus actually lived and actually said these things, which I highly doubt, what I believe his real point is, you have to be gullible like a child to believe all this stuff and get into heaven, and any of you who refuse to be or can’t be gullible–shame on you for trying to talk sense into any of these who can–you will be gravely punished if you succeed in making them stumble.

Not only does this warn believers against relying upon their own judgment or reason (to do so would not be humble but rather arrogant), but it also puts a “hands off” sign on believers directed at non believers.  Meaning that if I had a spouse or a parent I saw lost to a belief I know is false, I am to remain silent about it or bad things will happen to me if I in any way, try to interject a different opinion, perspective, or interpretation.


18 comments on “Woe to You Who Disagrees w/ a Christian!

  1. It is strange but I read the same passages and get something quite different.
    Being humble like a child I take to mean not thinking you already have the answers. Children I know ask lots of questions because they want to find more. I also assumed that because Jesus was questioning established authority he was modelling what he meant. Humility means far more than gullibility. For example Jesus coming in to Jerusalem on a donkey – instead of a war horse at the head of a military parade is modelling something quite interesting in view of the store our modern world places on pomp and ceremony to acknowledge greatness. I cant visualise Jesus dressing up like an archbishop or accepting a knighthood. Again causing a child to stumble means to me setting them on a doomed path eg introducing them to drugs, teaching them that their beliefs are the only acceptable beliefs etc. Again Jesus modelled what he taught – (sorry to be more precise – that is how I see it).
    eg he taught tolerance by moving beyond traditional prejudice – eg the parable of the good Samaritan, warning against the certainty of the Scribes and Pharisees, eating with prostitutes and sinners eg like the tax collector.
    I have nothing against honest doubts and wonder if it is fundamentalism you have moved against. For example Einstein said although he didnt believe in a personal God (of the summoned and controlling sort?) he could not be an atheist because the atheist cannot hear the music of the of the spheres.

    • That is how I interpreted this passage also, when I was a Christian for 30+ years of my life. That is how they wanted us to interpret this passage, and that is how we were taught to interpret this passage. As an atheist now who “cannot hear the music of the spheres” or whatever…I interpret this passage quite a bit differently.

      It amuses me that you write about this fictional character Jesus as if he actually existed. Hard to believe I actually was once just as naive and gullible.

  2. While it is sensible to take into account all the aspects of why the gospels were not historical, these are now well understood (see some of my posts for example) and because some contemporary Roman historians acknowledge Jesus’ existance (not always in flattering terms) I think it is quite probable he existed.
    However like Shakespeare whose authorship of the plays is often disputed, it is the plays themselves that contain some interesting stuff. I find the sayings of Jesus, the parables etc quite helpful and their words contain useful moral and sociological truths which are helpful to a humane society. eg blessed are the peacemakers, forgive your enemies, turn the other cheek, do unto others as they would have them do unto you, not to mention the great commandments that in effect subsume most other essential rules etc etc. If you prove to me that he didnt say them – I would reply “so what!” Someone thought them up and they are better than most current practice. In addition they have inspired some fairly impressive actions whoever Jesus might or might not have been. eg the hospital system, the welfare system etc etc. They also provide a useful form of social insurance in that their followers set up what in effect are sub societies that care for one another. Certain many great evils can also be thought to be part of the legacy eg religious wars etc but in fairness these are not part of Jesus teaching as recorded. We might wish for a society where none of these things were part of our history but it is unrealistic to pretend that Christianity has not helped shape Western society. I am all for Scepticism and am sceptical of a great many things but whatever philosophy is adopted one of its tests has to be whether or not it produces good social outcomes. Dont tell me atheism is preferable to Christianity, prove it by its outcomes eg Aid workers, peacemakers, Old folks homes, atheist organisations to help the IHC etc etc

    • You are misinformed. There is no mention of a person Jesus Christ in any writings other than the bible. There have been forged attempts (such as Josephus)–Christianity’s desperate attempts to make a fictional character historical, but that is all.

      Do Any First Century Historians Mention the Jesus of Christianity?

      Lately, much effort has been expended by the more educated Christians in trying to establish that first century historians mention Christ in their writings. This is really nothing new, but a reincarnation of earlier attempts.

      Firstly, I should mention that I consider that it is a possibility that a man named Jesus really did live in that part of the world, at that time. If he did, I think he was a political radical, a religious reformer, and a teacher of morals (much like Ghandi), and I think his followers built up a religion around him, turning him into a god.

      But I will also state that it is a possibility that he never lived at all, and was a construction of those who would create a new religion. I do not know– and I don’t think anyone else does either.

      That being said, let us look into the possibility that first century historians wrote about him. If this is true, that would lend weight to the claim that he really walked the earth. But some caution needs to be exercised here. If there was positive proof that historians wrote about him, then that might substantiate his existence, but not his divinity. All it might do is indicate that a man of that name once lived. It might even mean less than that. It might show only what Christ’s followers said about their leader, and may mean nothing in regards to the man himself.

      What is a good source? A contemporary historian– that is to say, an historian that lived and wrote during the time in which Christ is said to have lived. Any historian living or writing after that time could not have seen the events with his own eyes– possibly could not have even known any witnesses personally. Any historian writing decades or centuries after the events could only write of those things which he had heard others say. In other words, he would be writing hearsay… secondhand accounts of what Christ’s followers said about him. Certainly, this cannot be considered as reliable information. The followers of any cult leader certainly would exaggerate the character of the man they follow. As you shall see, whatever the authenticity of the documents turns out to be, none of the historians in question were contemporaries of Christ.

      Here is something to keep in mind as you read this article. Ask yourself this question. Could historic passages have been forged? Could the volumes of the historians have been tampered with? The answer is: yes they could have. Where were these historic volumes stored? In the local public library? In individuals’ private homes? No. They were in the posession of the Church, who studied from them and made copies of them. In what form did these writings take? On a typeset page, bound like a modern book? No. The printing press was not invented for a further 1300 years. The fact that the Church could write means that the forgeries could have been made. The Church had the opportunity, the means, and the motive to forge historical documents.

      This simple truth is widely admitted by Christian scholars. One case in point is our first example: Josephus Flavius, a famous historian. There are two alleged mentions of Jesus in his histories. The first of them, the more extensive and more famous one, is no longer quoted by Christian scholars. That is because they know it is a blatant Christian forgery. The second passage is still in use.

      “Josephus, the renowned Jewish historian, was a native of Judea. He was born in 37 A. D., and was a contemporary of the Apostles. He was, for a time, Governor of Galilee, the province in which Christ lived and taught. He traversed every part of this province and visited the places where but a generation before Christ had performed his prodigies. He resided in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle. He mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era. But Christ was of too little consequence and his deeds too trivial to merit a line from this historian’s pen.” (Remsberg, Ibid.)

      But first things first. Josephus was not a contemporary historian. He was born in the year 37 C.E., several years after Jesus’ alleged death. There is no way he could have known about Jesus from is own personal experience. At best, he could have recorded the activities of the new cult of Christianity, and what they said about their crucified leader. So, even if Josephus wrote about Jesus, it is not a credible source.

      The first “Jesus Passage” is discussed below. The paragraph on Jesus was added to Josephus’s work at the beginning of the 4th century, during Constantine’s reign, probably by or under the order of Bishop Eusebius, who was known for saying that it was permissible for Christians to lie in order to further the Kingdom of God. This behavior is justified directly in the New Testament, where Paul writes in the 3rd Chapter of Romans: “For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also judged as a sinner?”

      John E. Remsberg, The Christ

      Late in the first century Josephus wrote his celebrated work, “The Antiquities of the Jews,” giving a history of his race from the earliest ages down to his own time. Modern versions of this work contain the following passage:
      “Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works; a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day” (Book IXVIII, Chap. iii, sec. 3).

      For nearly sixteen hundred years Christians have been citing this passage as a testimonial, not merely to the historical existence, but to the divine character of Jesus Christ. And yet a ranker forgery was never penned.

      Its language is Christian. Every line proclaims it the work of a Christian writer. “If it be lawful to call him a man.” “He was the Christ.” “He appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning, him.” These are the words of a Christian, a believer in the divinity of Christ. Josephus was a Jew, a devout believer in the Jewish faith– the last man in the world to acknowledge the divinity of Christ. The inconsistency of this evidence was early recognized, and Ambrose, writing in the generation succeeding its first appearance (360 A. D.) offers the following explanation, which only a theologian could frame:

      “If the Jews do not believe us, let them, at least, believe their own writers. Josephus, whom they esteem a very great man, hath said this, and yet hath he spoken truth after such a manner; and so far was his mind wandered from the right way, that even he was not a believer as to what he himself said; but thus he spake, in order to deliver historical truth, because he thought it not lawful for him to deceive, while yet he was no believer, because of the hardness of his heart, and his perfidious intention.”

      Its brevity disproves its authenticity. Josephus’ work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines.

      It interrupts the narrative. Section 2 of the chapter containing it gives an account of a Jewish sedition which was suppressed by Pilate with great slaughter. The account ends as follows: “There were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded; and thus an end was put to this sedition.” Section 4, as now numbered, begins with these words: “About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder.” The one section naturally and logically follows the other. Yet between these two closely connected paragraphs the one relating to Christ is placed; thus making the words, “another sad calamity,” refer to the advent of this wise and wonderful being.

      The early Christian fathers were not acquainted with it. Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all would have quoted this passage had it existed in their time. The failure of even one of these fathers to notice it would be sufficient to throw doubt upon its genuineness; the failure of all of them to notice it proves conclusively that it is spurious, that it was not in existence during the second and third centuries.

      As this passage first appeared in the writings of the ecclesiastical historian, Eusebius, as this author openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the church, as he is known to have mutilated and perverted the text of Josephus in other instances, and as the manner of its presentation is calculated to excite suspicion, the forgery has generally been charged to him. In his “Evangelical Demonstration,” written early in the fourth century, after citing all the known evidences of Christianity, he thus introduces the Jewish historian: “Certainly the attestations I have already produced concerning our Savior may be sufficient. However, it may not be amiss. if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness” (Book III, p. 124).

      Chrysostom and Photius both reject this passage. Chrysostom, a reader of Josephus, who preached and wrote in the latter part of the fourth century, in his defense of Christianity, needed this evidence, but was too honest or too wise to use it. Photius, who made a revision of Josephus, writing five hundred years after the time of Eusebius, ignores the passage, and admits that Josephus has made no mention of Christ.

      Modern Christian scholars generally concede that the passage is a forgery. Dr. Lardner, one of the ablest defenders of Christianity, adduces the following arguments against its genuineness:

      “I do not perceive that we at all want the suspected testimony to Jesus, which was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. Nor do I recollect that Josephus has anywhere mentioned the name or word Christ, in any of his works; except the testimony above mentioned, and the passage concerning James, the Lord’s brother. It interrupts the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius, though he has three articles concerning Josephus. Under the article Justus of Tiberias, this author (Photius) expressly states that the historian [Josephus], being a Jew, has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors, nor Origen against Celsus, has ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chapter xxxv of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ” (Answer to Dr. Chandler).

      Again Dr. Lardner says: “This passage is not quoted nor referred to by any Christian writer before Eusebius, who flourished at the beginning of the fourth century. If it had been originally in in the works of Josephus it would have been highly proper to produce it in their disputes with Jews and Gentiles. But it is never quoted by Justin Martyr, or Clement of Alexandria, nor by Tertullian or Origen, men of great learning, and well acquainted with the works of Josephus. It was certainly very proper to urge it against the Jews. It might also have been fitly urged against the Gentiles. A testimony so favorable to Jesus in the works of Josephus, who lived so soon after our Savior, who was so well acquainted with the transactions of his own country, who had received so many favors from Vespasian and Titus, would not be overlooked or neglected by any Christian apologist” (Lardner’s Works, vol.I, chap. iv).

      Bishop Warburton declares it to be a forgery: “If a Jew owned the truth of Christianity, he must needs embrace it. We, therefore, certainly ,conclude that the paragraph where Josephus, who was as much a Jew as the religion of Moses could make him, is made to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, in terms as strong as words could do it, is a rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too” (Quoted by Lardner, Works, Vol. I, chap. iv).

      The Rev. Dr. Giles, of the Established Church of England, says: “Those who are best acquainted with the character of Josephus, and the style of his writings, have no hesitation in condemning this passage as a forgery, interpolated in the text during the third century by some pious Christian, who was scandalized that so famous a writer as Josephus should have taken no notice of the gospels, or of Christ, their subject. But the zeal of the interpolator has outrun his discretion, for we might as well expect to gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles, as to find this notice of Christ among the Judaizing writings of Josephus. It is well known that this author was a zealous Jew, devoted to the laws of Moses and the traditions of his countrymen. How, then, could he have written that Jesus was the Christ? Such an admission would have proved him to be a Christian himself, in which case the passage under consideration, too long for a Jew, would have been far too short for a believer in the new religion, and thus the passage stands forth, like an ill-set jewel, contrasting most inharmoniously with everything around it. If it had been genuine, we might be sure that Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and Chrysostom would have quoted it in their controversies with the Jews, and that Origen or Photius would have mentioned it. But Eusebius, the ecclesiastical historian (I, ii), is the first who quotes it, and our reliance on the judgment or even honesty of this writer is not so great as to allow our considering everything found in his works as undoubtedly genuine” (Christian Records, p. 30).

      The Rev. S. Baring-Gould, in his “Lost and Hostile Gospels,” says: “This passage is first quoted by Eusebius (fl. A. D. 315) in two places (Hist. Eccl., lib. i, c. xi ; Demonst. Evang., lib. iii); but it was unknown to Justin Martyr (A. D. 140) Clement of Alexandria (A. D. 192), Tertullian (A. D. 193) and Origen (A. D. 230). Such a testimony would certainly have been produced by Justin in his apology or in his controversy with Trypho the Jew, had it existed in the copies of Josephus at his time. The silence of Origen is still more significant. Celsus, in his book against Christianity, introduces a Jew. Origen attacks the argument of Celsus and his Jew. He could not have failed to quote the words of Josephus, whose writings he knew, had the passage existed in the genuine text. He, indeed, distinctly affirms that Josephus did not believe in Christ (Contr. Cels. i).”

      Dr. Chalmers ignores it, and admits that Josephus is silent regarding Christ. He says: “The entire silence of Josephus upon the subject of Christianity, though he wrote after the destruction of Jerusalem, and gives us the history of that period in which Christ and his Apostles lived, is certainly a very striking circumstance” (Kneeland’s Review, p. 169).

      Canon Farrar, who has written the ablest Christian life of Christ yet penned, repudiates it. He says: “The single passage in which he [Josephus] alludes to him is interpolated, if not wholly spurious” (Life of Christ, Vol. I, p. 46). The following, from Dr. Farrar’s pen, is to be found in the “Encyclopedia Britannica”: “That Josephus wrote the whole passage as it now stands no sane critic can believe.” “There are, however, two reasons which are alone sufficient to prove that the whole passage is spurious– one that it was unknown to Origen and the earlier fathers, and the other that its place in the text is uncertain.” (Ibid)

      The Rev. Dr. Hooykaas, of Holland, says: “Flavius Josephus, the well known historian of the Jewish people, was born in A. D. 37, only two years after the death of Jesus; but though his work is of inestimable value as our chief authority for the circumstances of the times in which Jesus and his Apostles came forward, yet he does not seem to have mentioned Jesus himself. At any rate, the passage in his “Jewish Antiquities” that refers to him is certainly spurious, and was inserted by a later and a Christian hand.” (Bible for Learners, Vol. III, p. 27) This conclusion of Dr. Hooykaas is endorsed by the eminent Dutch critic, Dr. Kuenen.

      Dr. Alexander Campbell, one of America’s ablest Christian apologists, says: “Josephus, the Jewish historian, was contemporary with the Apostles, having been born in the year 37. From his situation and habits, he had every access to know all that took place at the rise of the Christian religion. Respecting the founder of this religion, Josephus has thought fit to be silent in history. The present copies of his work contain one passage which speaks very respectfully of Jesus Christ, and ascribes to him the character of the Messiah. But as Josephus did not embrace Christianity, and as this passage is not quoted or referred to until the beginning of the fourth century, it is, for these and other reasons, generally accounted spurious” (Evidences of Christianity, from Campbell-Owen Debate, p. 312).

      The Silence of Josephus
      J.M. Robertson

      When we are considering the possibilities of underlying historical elements in the gospel story, it may be well to note on the one hand the entirely negative aspect of the works of Josephus to that story, and on the other hand the emergence in his writings of personages bearing the name Jesus. If the defenders of the historicity of the gospel Jesus would really stand by Josephus as a historian of Jewry in the first Christian century, they would have to admit that he is the most destructive of all the witnesses against them. It is not merely that the famous interpolated passage (19 Antiq. iii, 3) is flagrantly spurious in every aspect– in its impossible context; its impossible language of semi-worship ; its “He was (the) Christ”; its assertion of the resurrection; and its allusion to “ten thousand other wonderful things” of which the historian gives no other hint—but that the flagrant interpolation brings into deadly relief the absence of all mention of the crucified Jesus and his sect where mention must have been made by the historian if they had existed. If, to say nothing of “ten thousand wonderful things,” there was any movement of a Jesus of Nazareth with twelve disciples in the period of Pilate, how came the historian to ignore it utterly? If, to say nothing of the resurrection story, Jesus had been crucified by Pilate, how came it that there is no hint of such an episode in connection with Josephus’ account of the Samaritan tumult in the next chapter?

      And if a belief in Jesus as a slain and returning Messiah had been long on foot before the fall of the Temple, how comes it that Josephus says nothing of it in connection with his full account of the expectation of a coming Messiah at that point?

      By every test of loyal historiography, we are not merely forced to reject the spurious passage as the most obvious interpolation in all literature: we are bound to confess that the “Silence of Josephus” as is insisted by Professor Smith, is an insurmountable negation of the gospel story. For that silence, no tenable reason can be given, on the assumption of the general historicity of the gospels and Acts. Josephus declares himself to be in his fifty-sixth year in the thirteenth year of Domitian. Then he was born about the year 38. By his own account (Life, § 2), he began at the age of sixteen to “make trial of the several sects that were among us” –the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes– and in particular he spent three years with a hermit of the desert named Banos, who wore no clothing save what grew on trees, used none save wild food, and bathed himself daily and nightly for purity’s sake. Thereafter he returned to Jerusalem, and conformed to the sect of the Pharisees. In the ANTIQUITIES, after describing in detail the three sects before named, he gives an account of a fourth “sect of Jewish philosophy,” founded by Judas the Galilean, whose adherents in general agree with the Pharisees, but are specially devoted to liberty and declare God to be their only ruler, facing torture and death rather than call any man lord. A careful criticism will recognize a difficulty as to this section. In § 2, as in the LIFE, “three sects” are specified; and the concluding section has the air of a late addition.

      Seeing, however, that the sect of Judas is stated to have begun to give trouble in the procuratorship of Gessius Florus, when Josephus was in his twenties, it is quite intelligible that he should say nothing of it when naming the sects who existed in his boyhood, and that he should treat it in a subsidiary way in his fuller account of them in the ANTIQUITIES.

      On what theory, then, are we to explain the total silence of Josephus as to the existence of the sect of Jesus of Nazareth, if there be any historical truth in the gospel story? It is of no avail to suggest that he would ignore it by reason of his Judaic hostility to Christism. He is hostile to the sect of Judas the Galilean. There is nothing in all his work to suggest that he would have omitted to name any noticeable sect with a definite and outstanding doctrine because he disliked it. He seems much more likely, in that case, to have described and disparaged or denounced it. And here emerges the hypothesis that he did disparage or denounce the Christian sect in some passage which has been deleted by Christian copyists, perhaps in the very place now filled by the spurious paragraph, where an account of Jesuism as a calamity to Judaism would have been relevant in the context. This suggestion is nearly as plausible as that of Chwolson, who would reckon the existing paragraph a description of a Jewish calamity, is absurd. And it is the possibility of this hypothesis that alone averts an absolute verdict of non-historicity against the gospel story in terms of the silence of Josephus. The biographical school may take refuge, at this point, in the claim that the Christian forger, whose passage was clearly unknown to Origen, perhaps eliminated by his fraud a historic testimony to the historicity of Jesus, and also an account of the sect of Nazaraeans.

      But that is all that can be claimed. The fact remains that in the LIFE, telling of his youthful scarch for a satisfactory sect, Josephus says not a word of the existence of that of the crucified Jesus; that he nowhere breathes a word concerning the twelve apostles, or any of them, or of Paul; and that there is no hint in any of the Fathers of even a hostile account of Jesus by him in any of his works, though Origen makes much of the allusion to James the Just, also dismissible as an interpolation, like another to the same effect cited by Origen, but not now extant. There is therefore a strong negative presumption to be set against even the forlorn hypothesis that the passage forged in Josephus by a Christian scribe ousted one which gave a hostile testimony.

      Over a generation ago, Mr. George Solomon of Kingston, Jamaica, noting the general incompatibility of Josephus with the gospel story and the unhistorical aspect of the latter, constructed an interesting theory, 3 of which I have seen no discussion, but which merits notice here. It may be summarized thus:
      1. Banos is probably the historical original of the gospel figure of John the Baptist.
      2. Josephus names and describes two Jesuses, who are blended in the figure of the gospel Jesus: (a) the Jesus (WARS, VI, v, 3) who predicts “woe to Jerusalem”; is flogged till his bones show, but never utters a cry; makes no reply when challenged; returns neither thanks for kindness nor railing for railing; and is finally killed by a stone projectile in the siege; and (b) Jesus the Galilean (LIFE §, 12: 27), son of Sapphias, who opposes Josephus, is associated with Simon and John, and has a following of “sailors and poor people,” one of whom betrays him (9 22), whereupon he is captured by a stratagem, his immediate followers forsaking him and flying. Before this point, Josephus has taken seventy of the Galileans with him (5 14) as hostages, and, making them his friends and companions on his journey, sets them “to judge causes.” This is the hint for Luke’s story of the seventy disciples.
      3. The “historical Jesus” of the siege, who is “meek” and venerated as a prophet and martyr, being combined with the “Mosaic Jesus” of Galilee, a disciple of Judas of Galilee, who resisted the Roman rule and helped to precipitate the war, the memory of the “sect” of Judas the Gaulanite or Galilean, who began the anti-Roman trouble, is also transmuted into a myth of a sect of Jesus of Galilee, who has fishermen for disciples, is followed by poor Galileans, is betrayed by one companion and deserted by the rest, and is represented finally as dying under Pontius Pilate, though at that time there had been no Jesuic movement.
      4. The Christian movement, thus mythically grounded, grows up after the fall of the Temple. Paul’s “the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost” (1 Thess. ii, 16) tells of the destruction of the Temple, as does Hebrews xii, 24-28; xiii, 12-14. This theory of the construction of the myth out of historical elements in Josephus is obviously speculative in a high degree; and as the construction fails to account for either the central rite or the central myth of the crucifixion it must be pronounced inadequate to the data. On the other hand, the author develops the negative case from the silence of Josephus as to the gospel Jesus with an irresistible force; and though none of his solutions is founded-on in the constructive theory now elaborated, it may be that some of them are partly valid.

      The fact that he confuses Jesus the robber captain who was betrayed, and whose companions deserted him, with Jesus the “Mosaic” magistrate of Tiberias, who was followed by sailors and poor people, and was “an innovator beyond everybody else,” does not exclude the argument that traits of one or the other, or of the Jesus of the siege, may have entered into the gospel mosaic.

      Given the clear and undeniable forgery of this Josephus passage, no one, including any Christian, can say that the Christian Church cannot and did not forge historic documents. The fact that Christians do not generally use this passage is testimony to the fact that the guilt of the Church has been recognized. Given all this, what reason do we have for supposing that the second alleged mention of Jesus by Josephus is any more reliable? And if this first passage has been “retired”, how long will it take before we see the inevitable demise of the second?

      On the second “mention of Jesus”
      Excerpt from The Christ, by John E. Remsburg

      “But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper and very insolent; he was also of the sect of Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all of the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity. Festus was dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the Sanhedrim of judges and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned” (Josephus, Antiquities, Book XX, chap. ix, sec. I).

      This passage is probably genuine with the exception of the clause, “who was called Christ,” which is undoubtedly an interpolation, and is generally regarded as such. Nearly all the authorities that I have quoted reject it. It was originally probably a marginal note. Some Christian reader of Josephus believing that the James mentioned was the brother of Jesus made a note of his belief in the manuscript before him, and this a transcriber afterward incorporated with the text, a very common practice in that age when purity of text was a matter of secondary importance.

      The fact that the early fathers, who were acquainted with Josephus, and who would have hailed with joy even this evidence of Christ’s existence, do not cite it, while Origen expressly declares that Josephus has not mentioned Christ, is conclusive proof that it did not exist until the middle of the third century or later. Those who affirm the genuineness of this clause argue that the James mentioned by Josephus was a person of less prominence than the Jesus mentioned by him, which would be true of James, the brother of Jesus Christ. Now some of the most prominent Jews living at this time were named Jesus. Jesus, the son of Damneus, succeeded Ananus as high priest that very year; and Jesus, the son of Gamaliel, a little later succeeded to the same office.

      To identify the James of Josephus with James the Just, the brother of Jesus, is to reject the accepted history of the primitive church which declares that James the Just died in 69 A.D., seven years after the James of Josephus [see the above quote] was condemned to death by the Sanhedrim. Whiston himself, the translator of Josephus, referring to the event narrated by the Jewish historian, admits that James, the brother of Jesus Christ, “did not die till long afterward.”

      The brief “Discourse Concerning Hades”, appended to the writings of Josephus, is universally conceded to be the product of another writer– “obviously of Christian origin”– says the Encyclopedia Britannica.

      On Tacitus
      The Christ, by John Remsburg, pp. 39-43

      In July, 64 A. D., a great conflagration occurred in Rome. There is a tradition to the effect that this conflagration was the work of an incendiary and that the Emperor Nero himself was believed to be the incendiary. Modern editions of the “Annals” of Tacitus contain the following passage in reference to this:

      “Nero, in order to stifle the rumor, ascribed it to those people who were abhorred for their crimes and commonly called Christians: These he punished exquisitely. The founder of that name was Christus, who, in the reign of Tiberius, was punished as a criminal by the procurator, Pontius Pilate. This pernicious superstition, thus checked for awhile, broke out again; and spread not only over Judea, the source of this evil, but reached the city also: whither flow from all quarters all things vile and shameful, and where they find shelter and encouragement. At first, only those were apprehended who confessed themselves of that sect; afterwards, a vast multitude were detected by them, all of whom were condemned, not so much for the crime of burning the city, as their hatred of mankind. Their executions were so contrived as to expose them to derision and contempt. Some were covered over with the skins of wild beasts, and torn to pieces by dogs; some were crucified. Others, having been daubed over with combustible materials, were set up as lights in the night time, and thus burned to death. Nero made use of his own gardens as a theatre on this occasion, and also exhibited the diversions of the circus, sometimes standing in the crowd as a spectator, in the habit of a charioteer; at other times driving a chariot himself, till at length those men, though really criminal, and deserving exemplary punishment, began to be commiserated as people who were destroyed, not out of regard to the public welfare, but only to gratify the cruelty of one man.” (Annals, Book XV, sec. 4)

      This passage, accepted as authentic by many, must be declared doubtful, if not spurious, for the following reasons:
      1. It is not quoted by the Christian fathers.
      2. Tertullian was familiar with the writings of Tacitus, and his arguments demanded the citation of this evidence had it existed.
      3. Clement of Alexandria, at the beginning of the third century, made a compilation of all the recognitions of Christ and Christianity that had been made by Pagan writers up to his time. The writings of Tacitus furnished no recognition of them. .
      4. Origen, in his controversy with Celsus, would undoubtedly have used it had it existed.
      5. The ecclesiastical historian Eusebius, in the fourth century, cites all the evidences of Christianity obtainable from Jewish and Pagan sources, but makes no mention of Tacitus.
      6. It is not quoted by any Christian writer prior to the fifteenth century.
      7. At this time but one copy of the “Annals” existed, and this copy, it is claimed, was made in the eighth century—600 years after the time of Tacitus.
      8. As this single copy was in the possession of a Christian the insertion of a forgery was easy.
      9. Its severe criticisms of Christianity do not necessarily disprove its Christian origin. No ancient witness was more desirable than Tacitus, but his introduction at so late a period would make rejection certain unless Christian forgery could be made to appear improbable.
      10. It is admitted by Christian writers that the works of Tacitus have not been preserved with any considerable degree of fidelity. In the writings ascribed to him are believed to be some of the writings of Quintilian.
      11. The blood-curdling story about the frightful orgies of Nero reads like some Christian romance of the dark ages, and not like Tacitus.
      12. In fact, this story, in nearly the same words, omitting the reference to Christ, is to be found in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, a Christian of the fifth century.
      13. Suetonius, while mercilessly condemning the reign of Nero, says that in his public entertainments he took particular care that no human lives should be sacrificed, “not even those of condemned criminals.”
      14. At the time that the conflagration occurred, Tacitus himself declares that Nero was not in Rome, but at Antium.

      Many who accept the authenticity of this section of the “Annals” believe that the sentence which declares that Christ was punished in the reign of Pontius Pilate, and which I have italicized, is an interpolation. Whatever may be said of the remainder of this passage, this sentence bears the unmistakable stamp of Christian forgery. It interrupts the narrative; it disconnects two closely related statements. Eliminate this sentence, and there is no break in the narrative.

      In all the Roman records there was to be found no evidence that Christ was put to death by Pontius Pilate. This sentence, if genuine, is the most important evidence in Pagan literature. That it existed in the works of the greatest and best known of Roman historians, and was ignored or overlooked by Christian apologists for 1,360 years, no intelligent critic can believe. Tacitus did not write this sentence.

      Pliny the Younger

      This Roman author, early in the second century, while serving as a pro-consul under Trajan in Bithynia, is reputed to have written a letter to his Emperor concerning his treatment of Christians. This letter contains the following:

      “I have laid down this rule in dealing with those who were brought before me for being Christians. I asked whether they were Christians; if they confessed, I asked them a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; if they persevered, I ordered them to be executed. . . . . They assured me that their only crime or error was this, that they were wont to come together on a certain day before it was light, and to sing in turn, among themselves, a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and to bind themselves by an oath– not to do anything that was wicked, that they would commit no theft, robbery, or adultery, nor break their word, nor deny that anything had been entrusted to them when called upon to restore it. . . . . I therefore deemed it the more necessary to enquire of two servant maids, who were said to be attendants, what was the real truth, and to apply the torture. But I found it was nothing but a bad and excessive superstition.”

      Notwithstanding an alleged reply to this letter from Trajan, cited by Tertullian and Eusebius, its genuineness may be well questioned, and for the following reasons:

      I. The Roman laws accorded religious liberty to all, and the Roman government tolerated and protected every religious belief. Renan says: “Among the Roman laws, anterior to Constantine, there was not a single ordinance directed against freedom of thought; in the history of the Pagan emperors not a single persecution on account of mere doctrines or creeds” (The Apostles). Gibbon says: “The religious tenets of the Galileans, or Christians, were never made a subject of punishment, or even of inquiry.” (Rome, Vol. 2, pg. 215)
      2. Trajan was one of the most tolerant and benevolent of Roman emnerors.
      3. Pliny, the reputed author of the letter, is universally conceded to have been one of the most humane and philanthropic of men.
      4. It represents the distant province of Bithynia as containing, at this time, a large Christian population, which is improbable.
      5. It assumes that the Emperor Trajan was little acquainted with Christian beliefs and customs, which cannot be harmonized with the supposed historical fact that the most powerful of primitive churches flourished in Trajan’s capital and had existed for fifty years.
      6. Pliny represents the Christians as declaring that they were in the habit of meeting and singing hymns “to Christ as to a god.” The early Christians did not recognize Christ as a god, and it was not until after the time of Pliny that he yeas worshiped as such.
      7. “I asked whether they were Christians; if they confessed, I asked them a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; if they persevered I ordered them to be executed.” That this wise and good man rewarded lying with liberty and truthfulness with death is difficult to believe.
      8. “I therefore deemed it more necessary to inquire of two servant maids, who were said to be attendants, what was the real truth, and to apply the torture.” Never have the person and character of woman been held more sacred than they were in Pagan Rome. That one of the noblest of Romans should have put to torture young women guiltless of crime is incredible.
      9. The declaration of the Christians that they took a solemn obligation “not to do anything that was wicked; that they would commit no
      theft, robbery, or adultery, nor break their word,” etc., looks like an ingenious attempt to parade the virtues of primitive Christians.
      10. This letter, it is claimed, is to be found in but one ancient copy of Pliny.
      11. It was first quoted by Tertullian, and the age immediately preceding Tertullian was notorious for Christian forgeries.

      Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny– these are the disinterested witnesses adduced by the church to prove the historical existence of Jesus Christ; the one writing nearly one hundred years, the others one hundred and ten years after his alleged birth; the testimony of two of them self-evident forgeries, and that of the third a probable forgery.

      But even if the doubtful and hostile letter of Pliny be genuine, it was not written until the second century, so that there is not to be found in all the records of profane history prior to the second century a single allusion to the reputed founder of Christianity.

      To these witnesses is sometimes, though rarely, added a fourth, Suetonius, a Roman historian who, like Tacitus and Pliny, wrote in the second century. In his “Life of Nero,” Suetonius says: “The Christians, a race of men of a new and villainous superstition, were punished.” In his “Life of Claudius,” he says : “He [Claudius] drove the Jews, who at the instigation of Chrestus were constantly rioting, out of Rome.” Of course no candid Christian will contend that Christ was inciting Jewish riots at Rome fifteen years after he was crucified at Jerusalem.

      Significant is the silence of the forty Jewish and Pagan writers named in this chapter. This silence alone disproves Christ’s existence. Had this wonderful being really existed the earth would have resounded with his fame. His mighty deeds would have engrossed every historian’s pen. The pages of other writers would have abounded with references to him. Think of going through the literature of the nineteenth century and searching in vain for the name of Napoleon Bonaparte! Yet Napoleon was a pigmy and his deeds trifles compared with this Christ and the deeds he is said to have performed.

      With withering irony Gibbon notes this ominous silence: “But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world, to those evidences which were represented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and of their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies. The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, demons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benefit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and, pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral or physical government of the world. Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire, was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours. Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history. It happened during the lifetime of Seneca and the elder Pliny, who must have experienced the immediate effects, or received the earliest intelligence of the prodigy. Each of these philosophers, in a laborious work, has recorded. all the great phenomena of Nature, earthquakes, meteors, comets, and eclipses, which his indefatigable curiosity could collect. Both the one and the other have omitted to mention the greatest phenomenon to which the mortal eye has been witness since the creation of the globe” (Rome, Vol. I, pp. 588-590).

      Even conceding, for the sake of argument, both the authenticity and the credibility of these passages attributed to the Roman historians, what do they prove ? Do they prove that Christ was divine-that he was a supernatural being, as claimed? No more than do the writings of Paine and Voltaire, which also contain his name. This evidence is favorable, not to the adherents, but to the opponents, of Christianity. If these passages be genuine, and their authors have penned historical truths, it simply confirms what most Rationalists admit, that a religious sect called Christians, who recognized Christ as their founder, existed as early as the first century; and confirms what some have charged, but what the church is loath to admit, that primitive Christians, who have been declared the highest exemplars of human virtue, were the most depraved of villains.

      [It is a] proof that the Christ of Christianity is a fabulous and not a historical character in the silence of the writers who lived during and immediately following the time he is said to have existed. The following is a list of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works:

      Josephus, Arrian, Philo- Judaeus, Petronius, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Suetonius, Juvenal, Martial, Persius, Plutarch, Justus of Tiberius, Apollonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Quintilian, Lucanus, Epictetus, Silius Italicus, Statius, Ptolemy, Hermogones, Valerius Maximus, Appian, Theon of Smyrna, Phlegon, Pompon Mela, Quintius Curtius, Lucian, Pausanias, Valerius Flaccus, Florus Lucius, Favorinus, Phaedrus, Damis, Aulus Gellius, Columella, Dio Chrysostom, Lysias, Appion of Alexandria.

      Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.

      Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurrection of the dead took place when Christ himself rose from the dead, and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

      Justus of Tiberius was a native of Christ’s own country, Galilee. He wrote a history covering the time of Christ’s reputed existence. This work has perished, but Photius, a Christian scholar and critic of the ninth century, who was acquainted with it, says: “He [Justus] makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, of what things happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did” (Photius’ Bibliotheca, code 33).

      Judea, where occurred the miraculous beginning and marvelous ending of Christ’s earthly career, was a Roman province, and all of Palestine is intimately associated with Roman history. But the Roman records of that age contain no mention of Christ and his works. The Greek writers of Greece and Alexandria who lived not far from Palestine and who were familiar with its events, are silent also.

      As to the ancient historians, from Herodotus to Taoitus, we credit them as far as they relate things probable and credible, and no further; for if we do, we must believe the two miracles which Tacitus relates were performed by Vespasian, that of curing a lame man and a blind man, in just the same manner as the same things are told of Jesus Christ by his historians. We must also believe the miracles cited by Josephus, that of the sea of Pamphilia opening to let Alexander and his army pass, as is related of the Red Sea in Exodus. These miracles are quite as well authenticated as the Bible miracles, and yet we do not believe them

  3. Gosh – and they say that an infinite number of monkeys would be needed to randomly type the works of Shakespeare and yet you have managed to do the same with John Remsberg who by coincidence is almost word for word the same as you. I can see how forgeries can arise! I take the point that there is argument about Jesus existence although I have read other authorities who suggest the evidence is quite strong citing other evidence and other authorities. However I dont wish to argue the point since I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar and although I can read and be convinced by a host of scholars – eg Elaine Pagels, Ian Wilson etc etc I dont know whether they or Remsberg has it right. But yes I do know about some of the forgeries and am aware for example about the later additions to the book of Mark. However as I tried to explain, – from wherever the words claimed to be spoken by Jesus came from they still include some fairly impressive organising ideas which stand by themselves as inspiring – even if we might argue how they were inspired. Does the fact that you only chose to answer the point which I said was not of great concern to me suggest you agree with my other points?

    • Gosh???

      You know, I could say Middle Earth is real too because not only is there a book that says so, now there are movies too.

      Yes, I copied and pasted information from another’s website who did the work of listing the well known (by now) fact that NO very prolific historians who lived during the alleged “Jesus” so-called lifetime, bothered to mention him at all. Let’s see, at his so-called crucifixion the ground cracked open and zombies walked into town and greeted their loved ones. How interesting that this was not worthy of mention by any historians of the day. Or Jesus feeding the multitude with only three loaves of bread and fish. Lots of people there. None of them reported back to a living breathing historian in the area? Or maybe that bread/fish trick was so common back then all the historians thought it mundane?

      I’m sorry but you lost me (as far as your other points) the moment you defended a work of fiction and a fictional character like it is real. Your “other authorities” were likely Christian “scholars” bent on keeping the lie alive and kicking. I too only read Christian opinions and Christian writers when I was a Christian. I didn’t want to hear anything else. It is not theory but fact–there IS not one single shred of evidence to show 1. God exists, 2. Jesus exists, 3., most of the characters in the bible ever existed. Not one shred. You can blather at me all you want to about “other evidence and other authorities,” but they are not credible and are not based on fact. There is only one book that even mentions Jesus and it is the bible. And I am done wasting my time with this. You seem to have nothing better to do than to attack my right to have an interpretation of a verse in what I find to be a very offensive book of recreated myths and plagerized wisdom from far more ancient pagan faiths. Good for you. But I have better things to do.

      What turned me off from your despicable god is he himself. How Christians can wear blinders and utterly ignore the rather less than desirable ethics JESUS demonstrates in the New Testament, or the god of the old testament who wipes out entire civilizations, makes mistakes and says oops, think I’ll kill everyone and try again, orders virgins to be raped, pregnant women to be cut open with swords, little children to be dashed to pieces…. You actually want to defend that and say it’s true and good and makes some kind of sense, go right ahead. I really would rather not waste my time.

      As for a infinite number of monkeys needed to randomly type the works of Shakespeare…actually one random monkey was required–Shakespeare himself.

    • Tell you what. Read the former Evangelist and minister Dan Barker’s novel “Losing Faith in Faith” from cover to cover, then come back here and tell me you still believe 1. God is good, 2. Jesus is good 3. the bible is a good moral guide 4., any of this is true.

      Or if you’d rather not read all the reasons a former very fired up Christian minister came to realize it’s all a lie, then how about just presenting for me all these other “evidences” you speak of. I have Googled myself and seen all the websites describing non-biblical evidence for Jesus. Know what? They are Christian websites. I also note that all or most of the websites indicating that there is no non-biblical proof of God or Jesus, are websites without the Christian agenda of supporting the lie, but have instead the agenda of disproving the lie.

      What convinces me are when I read accounts from people like I was, only truly religious, spiritiual, knowledgeable Christians who did missionary work, did healings (supposedly), saw what a lie and fraud it was (and many persons of the cloth KNOW IT), but did it anyway, until one day they just couldn’t anymore. That is Dan Barker. And there are many more like him. In fact many of the people who go to Seminary don’t make it through without having their faith unraveled–and yet they go on to minister because that’s what they majored in–paid the big bucks to major in. Many of the people who preach in churches don’t actually even believe. The ones that I listen to are the ones who DID believe with all their heart, and then one day they can’t wear the blinders anymore and they have to actually confront the lie they’ve been living, spreading around and deceiving people with.

      Dan Barker is how I lost my faith. That and reading the bible cover to cover. Then I read other books by other former Christians, other people who stopped reading just what the church wanted them to hi-light in their bibles but all those other verses inbetween that turn the stomach.

      Read Dan Barker’s book. Or present all this other evidence. Otherwise, there is no credibility behind what you say as far as I’m concerned.

      • There’s great reading material on the “other side” as well: “Evidence that demands a verdict” by Lee Stroebel, Josh McDowell has some great books, and the best I’ve read is “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist.” I’d highly encourage you to read some of these books.

        By the way, I have no desire to argue, or even *try* to convince you. Just pointing out that there is great material available to defend the faith. I’ve done plenty of research, and can honestly say BECAUSE of the research, my faith is stronger than ever.

      • Faith is not a virtue. Faith is nodding your head and believing in what makes no sense. I have read plenty of rebuttals by apologists scrambling to justify or clarify what the so important Word of God does not make clear. I have read both sides. For a long time i refused to read anything written by anyone who wasn’t Christian who might (heaven forbid) reveal the idiocy of following a bully who claims to love us when I’m sorry, I have read the bible cover to cover and the Christian’s idea of their god is not the guy in the bible.

        I don’t know why I keep having Christians write me encouraging me to read more of the Christian argument assuming I haven’t because I don’t believe. I have. I have also filled in the blanks with my own explanations to try to reconcile the flaws. Eventually it starts not making sense. All I had to do is put the pieces together and ask myself how this possibly makes any sense:

        God is all by himself. God is all powerful and all knowing. God can see the entire future laid out before him–he knows everything that is going to happen before it happens.

        So God makes Lucifer, knowing before he makes Lucifer that Lucifer is going to “rebel.” Question. How can it be considered “rebelling” if Lucifer merely performs as he was made to? God made Lucifer. God made Lucifer knowing ahead of time this would be a flawed angel. God did nothing to remedy the flaw–made Lucifer anyway, with the flaw. It follows from this, God wanted Lucifer to exist with the flaw, even knowing ahead of time this angel would act according to how he was made (by God) and rebel. Obviously there has to be a very important reason–it’s part of God’s plan apparently, that he have this enemy with his legions of demons to rule the world and work against God. Apparently God needed a snake to whisper into ignorant newborn human ears.

        So all transpires as God knew it would. Lucifer does as he was made to do, and gets punished for it, cast down, and becomes Satan–as God intended him to. And I guess these other angels also performed as they were made to–apparently also made flawed because they too followed Satan to earth. And you can say at this point Lucifer and his followers were practicing their free will–God didn’t make them flawed, they simply chose to be evil, except that according to the bible, angels do NOT have free will. That is what sets humans apart from angels–we do. They do not. SO for Satan to become Satan and those angels to become demons, they had to perform according to how they were made. They were doing GOD’S WILL.

        Wait, it gets better. So God makes man. He could have made man in such a way that man would not need a tree of knowledge–but would rather know what is right and wrong. He could have made man (and woman) wise enough to understand that his do-it-yourself created adversary Satan was also in the garden lurking around (as God must have known) waiting to tempt Eve–which God also knew would happen before he even put humans in close proximity to his enemy of whom he just made. But instead God made humans flawed too, deliberately put them in close proximity with his newly created fallen angel, knowingly doing this, knowing ahead of time what would happen because he made his humans ignorant and flawed…then when it did happen what does he do? He punishes the humans. He even goes so far as to punish snakes because it was a snake that Satan decided to appear as. Yes, like we should hold it against innocent reptiles from that day forward because Satan didn’t choose to appear as a duck or a billy goat. If he had would we be seeing ducks and billy goats slithering around on their bellies right now?

        So man and women are cast out of Eden and become mortal, punishment, again, for being just what God created and doing just what God knew they would do and wanted them to do because again, it was all a part of his divine plan. Isn’t that nice?

        Jumping ahead. At one point God decides that all the people are so corrupt and he actually regrets making people. Does this sound like a being that is capable of seeing the future? Well, is he all knowing or NOT? So he sends a flood and kills everything. Not just people but everything. If he can see the future, why didn’t he just make humans right the first time? Why didn’t he simply unmake all the humans rather than punish all the innocent animals and plants and trees and fish (because the flood would have also killed off most of the sealife). Or does he just get his jollies from making things flawed and then punishing them / killing them?

        Oh, but because humans are now flawed they have to constantly worship this God, and offer up the best of their crops and animals to placate his monsterous ego. Humans in other words, become slaves more or less–every thing about their existence is about placating and pleasing this angry bloodthirsty being in the sky watching their every move and when enough of them don’t want to do this, he wipes out all life on the planet because…oops, guess he regrets making humans wrong. Yes, like the creator of all the galaxies that are likely as numerous as stars, would make a mistake accidentally? No, any mistakes this God makes is deliberate which means–he wanted an enemy. He wanted this enemy to trick his gullible stupid newly born human creation into giving him a reason to get angry…he wanted to get angry…he wanted to punish them…he wanted to put them in a position where they must grovel and serve and live their lives “according to his will” for all eternity.

        All so he can send a piece of himself down to earth as a human (not once–but thirteen times if the pagan sun-god religions are right, but I digress), to take the burden of our sins for us…to DIE on the cross so we don’t have to go to hell.

        Oh, but we must again, grovel, and serve and live our lives according to his will and blah blah blah.

        Love me or ELSE, he says. The creator of hell. The creator of Satan. The creator of the first original sin. LOVE ME OR ELSE–and a lake of fire where people who practice this so called “free will” and choose to not will suffer in agony forever.

        Fuck that. You think this story makes sense? You think this god is worth one breath of praise and worship? Not even close. If such a being exists it deserves none of these things from me.

      • It’s obvious that you are very passionate about your beliefs and you’ve spent a ton of time thinking about this. You understand the history of God at work. (though we would disagree on several interpretations, I respect your opinion & especially the fact that you are informed) I really appreciate your detailed response, and I’m glad you’ve read the words & works of Christian apologists.

        I will never understand God’s ways, but I’m ok with that. I’m very grateful that we live in a country where you and I both can so freely express our views, and have no worries of reprisal. You certainly have put a lot of work into your blog, and again, I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to my comment.

      • Yes I know, “God works in mysterious ways.”

        Except that, there is no god. Just an invention by corrupt men who wanted to control, dominate and gain in wealth by filling up church coffers and using the money for themselves.

        Don’t believe it? Research what Billy Graham did with his money from his crusades. Research what a lot of churches do with money given for charity.

        You’re a nice person–and yes I do feel very passionately having been deceived for over 30 years and having it almost completely destroy my self esteem. I never have been happier since i let those fetters go. I just hurt in my heart for people who still walk in darkness. No offense. It took me a very long time to refer to god as the myth that he is. it becomes so ingrained you can’t even imagine the world without this tyrant. But now that I can, such a BETTER world!

  4. My only problem with your position is why you insist on holding on to a naive belief in the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy. I cant see why you must have these beliefs whereas I from my patronising position of abunnyist and afairyist have long since given these away. How do I know about these beliefs of yours? Why in the same way that you know about my beliefs. I guessed it from some people I once met who had these beliefs. If you want to know what I think of particular beliefs before telling me my beliefs are rubbish, why dont you look them up? Google “Bill Peddie” “Shaping of God” and you will find there an article about why you shouldnt take the Bible as being literally true.
    Google Bill Peddie “Francis Galton” and you should get one of my articlces on the scientific testing of prayer. I have well over 100 articles on what I believe and why and they dont come anywhere near anywhere near why you are telling me I believe. But if I might make a suggestion. Lighten up and relax a bit.
    Read my poetry war with the witty atheist poet “Atheist Rose” entitled “The battle of the bards” which you will also find on my site.

    • No, and I don’t take anything about Christianity as literally being true.

      I have no belief in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairies or any other supernatural beings. What on earth gives you the idea I would?

      You have done an excellent job demonstrating what happens when atheists dare to disagree with Christians. Thank you. It’s truly been…fun? I will not be posting any more of your absurd comments on my blog, however. Enjoy your delusion. I can’t say that I did very much. Why I no longer believe.

      Ps. Scientific testing of prayer? Lol! You know what? I tried praying to my sofa for a year–I had the same exact results…about 50% yes, 50% no. Go figure.

    • By the way, did you not READ what I wrote about being a Christian for over 30 years? You write to me “why don’t you look them up?” Don’t you think in the years since I became a Christian at age 12 until three years ago I did? Lol! I was a camp counselor and a Sunday School teacher at University Presbyterian Church in Seattle. I went to bible studies. I read all the glossed over looking through stain glass bull shit. Been there. DONE that. How dare you imply I know nothing about the Christian position. I was a Christian probably longer than you have been alive. Born again–did the whole accepting Jesus thing into my heart at the Billy Graham crusade. The whole 9 yards. I read and I researched and I “looked them up” until I was blue in the face and you know what? None of it ever ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

      Why don’t you read about how all the “evidence” you don’t produce here has been disproven? Why don’t YOU read something not written by a fellow Christian? Why don’t you let me find other meanings to verses rather than the same meaning brainwashed into me from every church I’ve ever been to?

  5. Calm down and take a breath. You are doing it again. You are saying you dont need to find out what my beliefs are because you have studied them for 30 years. You ask: how dare I assume you dont know what I believe.?????…well I would say it is a near certainty. After all I dont know what your beliefs are other than you have rejected the faith you were brought up with for 30 years. How could I? I have only read one brief article you have written. Those beliefs you have studied are not necessarily my beliefs. There is not one Christian position. It sounds for example that your Christian experience has been evangelical and conservative whereas I regularly upset the conservative Christian groups with my liberal scientific approach. For example I am an evolutionist and have written my PhD on the creation – evolution debate (and as a consequence I happen to know something about the range of beliefs on that subject. Although I am a liberal and probably totally reject many of the things you totally reject I suspect it is dangerous to work it out by assigning labels. Havent you heard of John Spong or Lloyd Geering? These are Christians who I relate to. Do you think they saying the same as the born again stuff you refer to? In any event some atheists I know recommend reading the Bible which I suspect you would not do. For example both Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins recommend being familiar with the Bible. I regularly read books written by non Christians eg I recently re-read Richard Dawkins The God Delusion and like many of the points he makes. Why not look at the posts I suggested you look at – and relax a little.

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